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Posted: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 at 05:01 PM
by glenmar
[report this post as inappropriate] I have given it some thought and quite frankly, I am not very concerned. The system is very efficient and the load for daytime heating, is generally less than evening and nightime. In my instance, on sunny winter days the sun comes halfway through our home so I have definitely have a passive assist happening naturally. In the summer we only use the system to reduce humidity in the evening, if needed. Shade trees & vines protect the home in the summer so heat is not an issue, but humidity can be if it persists for more than a few days and manages to infiltrate the home. Room/ceiling fans are also helpful just to keep some air moving and make you feel cooler under the circumstances. I plan to put my hot water booster tank on a timer so if it needs to come on to top up my solar hot water system contribution, it will only do so at night. I am looking at putting a timer on my hottub as well, since it is already quite efficient and a temperature topping up each night should keep it at a comfortable temperature for my late evening dip. I just brought my attic insulation up to R50 and did a bit more weatherstripping, installed all new high efficiency toilets and had the follow-up REEP study done today. I will be presenting my pilot project documentary at the upcoming CREW public event at KPL next Thursday - 'Earth Energy & You'. Please see the list of News and Events for details. Please help pass the word. |
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Posted: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 at 01:15 PM
by dsec
[report this post as inappropriate] Hi Glen, The geothermal system (and a great deal more insulation) is in now and has been running for several months. Once I get my next electrical bill I'll start running the numbers to see what our home's operating costs are shaking out to be. I've read that goethermal units should be run at as much a constant temperature as possible for optimal officiency, which is what we are doing. After reading about plans to charge electricity at different rates during the day, I'm thinking that this would be a detriment to running the geothermal unit in this manner. Have you (or anyone else with a geo unit) given any thought to this with your system? Cheers, Scott |
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Posted: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 at 09:39 AM
by glenmar
[report this post as inappropriate] In regard to the 'Sonic' drilling rig used in my installation, this is a versatile, non-invasive drilling rig particularly useful in a small compact urban environment. This was a brand new $1million rig that was used to meet my requirements and highly recommended. The drilling arrangements were made through NextEnergy of Elmira and I suggest you contact them as to the availability of this rig coming to your site. I hope this is helpful and wish you well with your installation. I trust you will be as pleased as I am with my geothermal heating and cooling system. |
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Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 at 05:01 PM
by dsec
[report this post as inappropriate] Hi Glenmar, Thanks for your time
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Posted: Saturday, February 28, 2009 at 12:48 PM
by glenmar
[report this post as inappropriate] I believe you are referring to my presentation. With geothermal, you don't have a flame or heat source that super heats the air and dries it out before distributing it throughout your home. It is a very gentle heat. You also don't have a lot of air infiltration from outside via other vents typical of a combustion heat source so your envelope is tighter. Through cooking, bathing/showering, household plants, etc., you have natural moisture produced in your home that is not dried by the heat source, or exhausted to the outside in exhange for really dry cold air from the outside infiltrating. In my instance, even with the coldest winter days, the air in my home stays within the comfort range as far as the humidity is concerned, hence I don't need a humidifier. The geothermal cooling phase also has a dehumification function if you wish only to reduce the humidity in the summer without really cooling your home down to almost uncomfortable levels to achieve that end. This also saves you a great deal of unnecessary energy consumption and cost. I believe that geothermal is one of the most comfortable and efficient systems for heating and cooling your home. |
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Posted: Friday, February 27, 2009 at 02:50 PM
by dsec
[report this post as inappropriate] During the Crew Geothermal presentation, mention was made about the ability of these systems to keep the humidity in a comfortable range. Does anyone have more detail on this? Is it a feature inherent to the system, or is it an adder that is required (a humidifer or dehumidifier)? |
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Posted: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 at 04:55 PM
by brahn
[report this post as inappropriate] If you are interested in a more cost effective system you might consider our products @ www.enerquestinc.org we have the most reasonably geothermal and solar thermal products on the market.519-593-2525www.enerquestinc.org Enerquest is making renewable do-able |
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Posted: Monday, February 2, 2009 at 01:11 PM
by praetzel
[report this post as inappropriate] A couple of other observations: both REEP and the geo quotes significantly overestimated the cost of heating our house (and therefore the payback period as well). Based on their heat loss estimate and heating assumptions, they said we should have been spending 3-4k per year on oil, while we actually spent 2k. Do some sanity checks to compare what they say you're spending with what you actually are! Correct. REEP looks at your house and then moves you out and moves in a "standard" occupant/family. They do this for sanity in terms of comparing homes. If you do some research into Passiv House you'll find that energy consumption can vary by 50% from famliy to family. REEP has three goals: 1) notify owners of what they can do to improve their home. 2) document the home for government rebates 3) Give you some numbers for energy use - which you really need to be a numbers geek to reverse engineer and be able to suck meaningful information out of. They do miss things - such as the raised concrete slab that my living room is sitting on - all of it UNINSULATED. The #@$#@$ thing is about 6C at the edges. Oh sure REEP had an estimate for my basement energy loss - but that floor is around 16C. For my family REEP had us at something like 3x our normal water use, and 2x energy use. They recommended a HRV but it would increase our electricity use by 1/3 and so their before and after (upgrade) pie-charts of energy/GHGs don't really apply unless one does a lot of data massaging.
As I always say - the biggest changes you can make are with your lifestyle. If you make big changes there then often other changes are not economically viable. But we've been living in a Disney fantasy for the past 20 years - living with extreamily cheap energy and buying things based on credit/debt and not on money we've actually be able to earn. It was possible to do that for a while - but the music is winding down now ... |
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Posted: Sunday, February 1, 2009 at 11:12 PM
by pjzwart
[report this post as inappropriate] Here's another point of reference if it's of any use. We're in our third winter in our house (2000 sq ft 30-yr old country home). We had oil heat the first winter, which cost about $1800-2000. We put in a geothermal system for the second winter, and the electricity bill was about $500-600 higher than the previous year. So our heating cost is about 25-30% of what it was with oil. This winter is looking to be in the same ballpark. There's a few things that complicate a careful comparison. For example, we insulated parts of the basement halfway through the second winter, and we managed to reduce air leakage by about 15% as well. In addition, the geo system does some water heating, so part of the overall cost reduction (don't know exactly how much because the primary water heater is also electric) is due to reduced water heating cost. Our system cost about 15k after rebates, so by saving about $1500/yr, we are on track to have the system pay for itself in about 10 years. Less if oil prices bounce back up again. This is longer than what the geothermal marketers suggest (take them with a grain of salt), but still very worthwhile. If you're replacing a gas furnace, I'd expect a longer payback period. The rule of thumb a few years ago was that oil heating is about twice that of gas, but this may have changed lately, and also depends on the efficiency of the furnace you're replacing. My gut feel is that replacing gas with geo is something you'd do out of principle rather than economics. Perhaps if you're building from scratch, or need to replace your furnace anyways, it makes more sense. (Although you don't get the rebate for new construction...) Note also that you can get more than 7k in rebates. OPA also had (has?) some rebates if you're replacing low/mid efficiency furnace or A/C, and there is an Ontario RST rebate, so the total rebate was more like 8k for us. A couple of other observations: both REEP and the geo quotes significantly overestimated the cost of heating our house (and therefore the payback period as well). Based on their heat loss estimate and heating assumptions, they said we should have been spending 3-4k per year on oil, while we actually spent 2k. Do some sanity checks to compare what they say you're spending with what you actually are! And don't oversize your system. Most of the quotes we received wanted to install a 5-ton unit. But given our actual energy usage, we thought this was overkill and put a 4-ton unit in instead. It has been just fine - we haven't used the backup resistance heater at all, even on the coldest days. Last fall we put in a solar water heater as well. It's nicely complementary to the geo preheat system (geo does winters best, solar does summers best). We think the payback period will be a little longer (maybe 15 years), but are looking forward to how it works this summer. |
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Posted: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 at 11:01 AM
by praetzel
[report this post as inappropriate] Did they give you a month by month breakdown of that [gas cost]? That would help me understand the real savings. Any idea why the electric cost was so high in the summer - unless they did not use their a/c previous summers
Correct - they did not use their old A/C. Also at about -20C it kicks in the electric backup heat. They figure that the payback is around 12 years and they're on track for that. The owner in this case has done a signif. number of changes - an addition - and insulating the basement (concrete walls had thick frost on them previously). The home is over 4,000 sq-ft and so it must be pretty expensive to heat. A ballpark is that they were expecting it to cost about $29k (trenching) but in the end they drilled (more expensive). With $7k in grants that means that they expect to save $22k in 12 years or almost $2k/yr. They also recently replaced all basement windows (leaky, broken).
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Posted: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 at 05:24 PM
by dsec
[report this post as inappropriate] I've taken those numbers and placed them a spreadsheet to see how they came out. I don't know if I can past an excel documnet to this blog but I'll give it a shot. Overview:
If their gas cost is similar to my home, then they would see $ 1,000 dollars of savings each year by switching. |
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Posted: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 at 12:25 PM
by cdbh
[report this post as inappropriate] So, the cost of the electric increased but they got rid of the gas costs. Did they give you a month by month breakdown of that? That would help me understand the real savings. Any idea why the electric cost was so high in the summer - unless they did not use their a/c previous summers. |
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Posted: Monday, January 19, 2009 at 02:17 PM
by praetzel
[report this post as inappropriate] Here is the data from my friend - hopefully the formatting is ok: It's in dollars as it's the amount of hydro billed.
Month 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Jan 201 180 202 200 198 Mar 270 234 262 228 May 188 191 185 171* Jul 190 189 174 233 Sep 173 172 201 282 Nov 142 193 177 263 Total 1165 1160 1201 1376 Home about 5100 sq-ft Gas furnace & water heater removed May 2008 Geothermal & elec water heater running June 2008 What I find really odd in the data is why the Jan 2009 bill is lower - while previous months are higher. |
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Posted: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 at 12:33 PM
by praetzel
[report this post as inappropriate] Note that my friend who installed a geothermal system this summer is saying that it's an extra $50/month. We've not hit the cold of winter yet. Basically, in this case the gas fired water heater was removed, a mid efficiency gas furnace was removed, an old inefficient AC was removed and the furnace was set to circulate the air all of the time (via a non-DC motor - so it was around $300/yr just to keep the fan running). So - this person is saving money. I've seen issues with the compressor triping the circuit breaker so that the system failed over to electric heat ... and that resulted in an expensive electrical bill.
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Posted: Tuesday, January 6, 2009 at 08:10 PM
by cdbh
[report this post as inappropriate] Be sure to attend that night. The presenter has done a Kitchener geothermal vertical installation within the last year and combined it with solar hot water heating. I guess another thing to consider is not only the savings to you, but as a long term solution. |
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Posted: Tuesday, January 6, 2009 at 10:32 AM
by dsec
[report this post as inappropriate] Thanks for this. I see that CREW has a discussion on Geo on Jan 22nd, so I'll check that out as well. |
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Posted: Tuesday, January 6, 2009 at 05:36 AM
by praetzel
[report this post as inappropriate] Review all of the provided calculations with a fine tooth comb! In the case of my friend the payback is going to be around 12 years because of: 1) various gov/agency incentivies and removal of an old A/C maximized their grants available 2) they would make use of the geothermal as an A/C 3) they would run the furnace with the fan constantly on low speed 4) they compared the cost of geo to an mid-eff furnace with an A/C motor (fan constantly on is around $400-$500/yr 5) their furnace and A/C needed replacement or were getting very very old 6) they factored in a generous savings on the water pre-heating via the geothermal compressor (it's waste heat pre-heats home water) as well as removal of the Kit. Utilities gas water heater and it's rental fees 7) they factored in a savings for the removal of the gas mains to the home (save about $250/yr connection fee) so the home is now all electric.
In my case most of those don't apply. Just look at what it costs to heat your home. In my case it's $350/winter + $250 for the gas connection fee. Going thru REEP evaluations for typical older homes - you see $500/yr in water heating, $1600/yr in space heating. With figures like that a geothermal system can bring savings ... but if you're not using that ... then - are the savings there? You figure it out. Just how much will the cost of a geothermal install upgrade the home efficiency? Friends replaced all of their windows and tore off the siding and and put 6" of (green soy) foam insulation on for about the cost of a geothermal system and their cost savings will be signif., the home will be much more comfortable and use far less energy to heat.
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Posted: Monday, January 5, 2009 at 11:06 AM
by dsec
[report this post as inappropriate] Good morning, We are considering installing a geothermal system in our home but have concenrs about the electrial use as well. The Geo Contractors have shown us calculations which show savings, but an aquaintence of ours has intalled a unit and it's turning out to be more expenssive than their previous natural gas high efficeincy furnace (the contractor is investigating). I'm looking for someone who has upgraded a pre-existing home from natural gas to geothermal and can confirm that they have seen savings from doing so. Thanks
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Posted: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 at 09:38 PM
by Trent
[report this post as inappropriate]
We used it in a 22 unit apartment building for the House of Friendship and it made sense there because we are heating multiple units as well as the common areas. We had to drill very deep wells (300' plus) and it did add some time to the contruction timeline. So far it has been a good system with the exception of having to replace one of the pumps.
We paid an engineer to analyse the payback for us when combined with a federal grant compared to a traditional system and I believe it was in the 7 year range for us.
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Posted: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 at 09:08 AM
by praetzel
[report this post as inappropriate]
A friend is putting in geothermal. The cost is just astonishing.
The home is about 4,500 sq-ft, sprawling 60's vintage home.
$21k if they trench the back yard (they now lay them 5' down - not 4' like they used to) vs $28.5k in order to drill about 6 wells (ultrasonic method) in the driveway. That's just the system - nothing has been included for fixing up the driveway or re landscaping the back yard.
About $7k will offset that due to government incentives.
I'm awaiting real world data on how well it works; as this friend keeps energy use data. The electricity use will be astonishing I'm sure.
In my case - home 1/3 that size and better insulated, our $350/yr in gas for heating would never make such a system an option.
But if one could get both sides of a semi-detached to buy into a common heating system (violates the codes of course) it would look a lot better.
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